My DM and I have been going through my attempted munchkin-ing of my character, as I attempt to build the ultimate healer. I’ve done my online research about this, but most people simply go back and forth between saying that it is possible or not without quoting much from the actual rulebooks. I’m typing out this post to organize my thoughts (and rules lawyer to myself more effectively). Portions bolded and in quotes below are quoted from the rulebooks.
Since this post has become a little long, a quick summary up here. The Uber Healer (everyone on the net seems to agree) in DnD now is the Radiant Servant of Pelor prestige class. They get to empower and/or maximize domain spells from the Healing Domain without using a higher level spell slot. Adding in the feat Domain Spontaneity, which allows a caster to expend a turning attempt to convert a prepared spell into a spell from a selected domain, the Uber Healer can basically empower and/or maximize an additional number of healing spells equal to his number of turning attempts a day.
The question is, do the rules allow this?
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The superb healing ability of a Radiant Servant of Pelor (RSoP) is the ability to apply Empower (at level 2), Maximize (at level 6) and later both Empower and Maximize (at level 10) when he “casts a domain spell from the healing domain” without taking up a higher level spell slot. This would normally mean that he gets to cast a maximum of 9 spells at day (one at each spell level) which is affected by Empower and Maximize if he prepares Healing Domain spells inside his domain slots.
The first question is if a prepared or spontaneously converted cure spell (which is in the Healing Domain list) is also a domain spell. We refer to the description of domain spells in the Cleric class description:
From spells: “A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, [...]“
From Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: “Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, [...]“
Even these two early statements contradict each other if some flexibility is not applied to to the term ‘domain spell’. The first says he gets one, but the second one says that each domain gives one (and he always has at least two domains). The first refers to the allotment of slots for a list of spells, the second refers to the actual list of spells that can be prepared into these slots. For the sake of this discussion, lets refer to the first meaning as ‘domain spell slot’ and the second as ’spell in a domain list’.
” With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.”
In these two sentences, domain spell is used to refer to the spell in a domain list, whereas domain spell slot is spelled out.
“The cleric can ‘lose’ any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower.”
This is ambiguous. If it means a spell in a domain list, a cleric with the Sun domain would not be able to convert any prepared flamestrike spells into cures simply because flamestrike is in the Sun domain list. If it means a domain spell slot, then the said conversion would be possible.
The spell descriptions guide in the magic section says that “The Level entry also indicates whether a spell is a domain spell and, if so, what its domain and its level as a domain spell are.” This obviously refers to the spell in a domain list definition.
The PHB glossary defines the term domain spell as “A divine spell belonging to a domain.” This is again the ‘list’ definition.
With such interchangeability of usage, it is impossible to properly rules lawyer this, except by commonly understood convention. Since that flamestrike is convertible to a cure spell even if a cleric has the Sun domain, then domain spell, when its meaning cannot be determined from the context (as is the case with the empower/maximize ability description), must be assumed to refer to only spells prepared in the spell slot. In the case of a RSoP, the extra appearance (domain spell from the healing domain instead of spell from the healing domain) of the word domain would not be necessary if the designer didn’t mean it to only apply to spells prepared in that slot. Of course, it would’ve been clearer if he had put “spells cast through the domain spell slot which are from the healing domain.”
So I think we can safely assume that a RSoP cannot empower and maximize all cure spells simply because they appear on his Healing domain list.
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A feat in the same book (Complete Divine) called Domain Spontaneity allows a cleric to choose a domain, and expend a turning attempt to “convert prepared divine spells into any spell from that domain.” The feat also mentions that this is in the same way that a cleric normally spontaneously converts prepared spells into cure spells. So the question is, can a cleric who have taken this feat for the Healing domain, spontaneously convert prepared spells into healing domain spells. Do the spells that is converted in such a way by Domain Spontaneity count for the RSoP’s class ability (to empower/maximize)?
If allowed, this in effect, allows a player to empower/maximize healing spells not in the domain slot as many times a day as he have turning attempts. A character with three “Extra Turning” Feats and 16 charisma would be able to do this 18 times a day, assuming that he does not have any Nightsticks (a rod from Libris Mortis that through possession alone increases your turning attempts a day by 4).
The problem here is that suddenly the extra phrase “domain spell” as appears in the RSoP’s empower/maximize description is no longer used, but the phrase “from that domain” is used instead. If the feat says that you can convert “into any domain spell from that domain“, based on earlier reasoning, we would be able to conclude that it is referring to the slot definition, and allow RSoP’s empower/maximize healing without hesitation. The fact that the extra word domain is missing doesn’t actually prove or disprove anything. At this point, it is up to interpretation, and I doubt anyone is 100% right.
For myself, I think it applies. We can examine the spirit of domain spells and their slots through the example of Domain Spontaneity being taken for the Sun Domain. What is a 6th-level spontaneously converted fire seeds spell? It is not a cleric spell, but it is a Sun Domain spell. The only virtue by which the cleric could cast fire seeds was due to his domain, representing his connection to his God’s specialty. Hence, it makes sense that fire seeds should be considered a domain spell (arbitrary definition).
In terms of mechanics, there is the question of designer intent:
- both the prestige class and the feat appeared in the same book
- there are endless threads about this issue and no errata or clarification (for three years now)
- the feat right above Domain Spontaneity in the book is Domain Focus (adds +1 caster level to all spells cast from a domain) which specifies that the added caster level does not apply to “a spell from one of your nondomain spell slots [...] even if the spell also happens to appear on your domain list” The question of whether Domain Focus can be applied to Domain Spontaneity is the exact same problem this overlong post is meant to address, and that they didn’t bother putting in language to specify that the the former cannot be applied to the latter
- nobody seems to have concluded that Domain Focus and Domain Spontaneity cannot work together, suggesting that the only reason some cry foul in the RSoP’s case is because of numbers, not actual game mechanics.
- there is no distinction between a wizard’s prepared spell and the same sorcerer’s spontaneously cast spell (other than the application of metamagic feats)
- there is no distinction between a prepared cure spell, and a spontaneously cast cure spell (other than the application of metamagic feats)
- there should be no distinction between a prepared domain spell, and a spontaneously cast domain spell (other than the application of metamagic feats) (Erm, btw – when the RSoP casts healing domain spells they are affected as though by said metamagic. He is not actually applying a metamagic feat, so the full-round requirement of applying metamagic to spontaneously cast spells don’t apply to him. Heh.)
I think I’m comfortable assuming that the designer intends to have the the feat work with the prestige class’ ability.
Of course, rules lawyering should not dictate what finally happens – the DM should be the final arbiter of what he wishes to allow or not, after considering gameplay mechanics and what it entails. I hope this bit of discussion can give them an idea that there is no official answer right now, since that the errata for Complete Divine does not address this, and neither does the official game FAQ from Wizards. So what are the implications of allowing this?
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Implications as a player: WOOT. UBER HEALAH ZOMG!
Implications as a DM: WOOT. UBER HEALAH ZOMG! More baddies and more room for error on overpowered encounters! OR Shit – did that cleric just heal off all the damage I did again?
Personally as a player, my opinion doesn’t matter – I obviously would want the rules to allow this. As a DM though, I still would allow it. It lets the cleric do more total points of healing. I already routinely drop in healing wands in my campaigns for my clerics/druids so that their lives do not have to revolve around preparing and casting healing spells out of combat, and because I like to run a game without being too restricted by the 4 encounters a day the D&D encounter/session engine is balanced around.
The mechanic that this truly affects occurs in combat – the number of actions you can take in a round in combat can be considered a resource. The ability to empower/maximize a healing spell for a turning attempt is effectively increasing your power as a healer within a standard action. But I am sure that as a DM I can come up with challenges that make the players blink even with a (very) strong healer around. This is only a guess though, but it will be an interesting test for my DM and I.
Once we get further information on whether Ordanil will be overpowered, I’ll post here! Do comment if you have prior experience playing this build.
P/S – The other special ability my cleric will have is Divine Metamagic (Quicken) – giving up 5 turning attempts to quicken a spell without taking up a higher slot. He has zero combat feats, so essentially, he is a caster oriented cleric. (Yeah I know that Divine Metamagic is another issue all its own. But there is no rules lawyering involved. It’s a simple DM decision to allow it or not allow it. I personally don’t think it’s overpowered, and my DM is allowing it so… we’ll see.)
The big gotcha is that you can only empower/maximize your domain spells, not every spell you cast from the healing domain. Your domain spells refers to the 1 spell per level you place in the domain spell “slot”. So while you can convert other spells to cure spells, those new spells were never prepared in your domain spell slot for each level, and thus can’t be empowered/maximized. This prevents you from getting nearly 20 empowered/maximized healing spells per day via turning conversions.
By: Pal on April 17, 2008
at 12:42 am
“you can only empower/maximize your domain spells, not every spell you cast from the healing domain”
By whose definition?
By: Wilz on April 17, 2008
at 8:00 am
By the definition of the rule books. You are confusing a domain spell with a spell domain. A domain spell is a once daily spell at each level granted by your god for your faithfulness. A spell domain is the equivalent of an arcane school. Hope that clears things up.
By: kimchi on August 18, 2008
at 3:22 pm
Seriously did either of you read this post at all…
By: Wilz on August 18, 2008
at 3:40 pm
Yes, and the distinction I stated above should tell you my stance on your interpretations. Unless you are crossing a daily spell off of your domain list to cast it, it is not a domain spell as intended by feats or abilities that refer to domain spells. It can be cast from your domain spontaneously but is still not a domain spell. Your god grants you one spell per day per level maximum. Domain spontaneity allows you to access those powers but since the use of said feat does not expend a domain spell it does not count as a domain spell it says “convert prepared divine spells into any spell from that domain.” a spell /from/ that domain. Not a domain spell. Hope that makes more sense. I am not saying you are wrong, just that i disagree. There is a lot of room for interpretation in 3.5 and it only gets more complicated with each book you add to your character campaign.
By: kimchi on August 19, 2008
at 5:21 am
Ah that’s clearer. I completely agree on the complexity and interpretation thing
. Anyways I didn’t have a chance to see if that way of interpretation ended up being game breaking coz the campaign kind of stopped before he got high level enough. The early levels wasn’t too bad.
Tried 4th Ed yet?
By: Wilz on August 19, 2008
at 7:21 am
I haven’t. Not sure if I will It seems a great deal like a video game on paper. The new action oriented classes didn’t appeal to me enough to purchase books. I am hoping one of my friends will so I can try it before I spend the money.
Have you had the chance?
By: kimchi on August 19, 2008
at 2:51 pm
Have had the chance to own the three books.
Haven’t had the chance to play
By: Wilz on August 19, 2008
at 2:54 pm
Interesting post. don’t bother with 4th ed though, it is as you said video game on paper. very disappointing. have you tried pathfinder beta though? i am about to start a campaign with it. basically D&D 3.75
By: EKLA on January 15, 2009
at 6:01 am
The “Gotcha” actually in this case, is the fact that the description actually says you have to spend a spell of that level PLUS Turn/Rebuke attempts.
By: Zach on March 25, 2009
at 3:18 am
My group is currently going through this rule. I personally read it quite clearly that it’s meant to apply to the domain spell slot. Domain Spontaneity just allows you access to the list, but it is not a domain spell from the domain spell slot.
In any case, the concern for the ruling is relatively new. When there were only two RSoP for the 10 man group, no one cared. When it became 4 RSoP for a 12 man group, eyebrows were raised. During no time have I experienced the ruling to actually break the game, but I do play in a high-powered game where the increased healing simply allows for more room on an overpowered encounter.
What I find is that this entire discussion is relatively futile. If you cheese out to a decided advantage, the DM will just raise the power level. Other characters will have to cheese out to handle the encounters. In response, the power level raises yet again. Once everyone is cheesed out, the power level is so high characters can die in one hit (and so can monsters). The point of cheesing out was to make it so you couldn’t die, but now you’re right back where you started.
By: Lookoo on August 18, 2009
at 2:33 am
Nah. “The point of cheesing out” as you put it wasn’t to make it so that I (or rather the party) couldn’t die. I completely understand the idea that even players have to cooperate with DMs to make a game work so that everyone can have fun. I warn the DM of the implications of allowing / not allowing something. He ups the encounter toughness. It’s cool.
It’s just that it’s fun to have a character who can do these things. More options, etc
.
By: Wilz on August 18, 2009
at 9:44 am
I didn’t have a chance to write it down, but I found myself in a bookstore and came across the Spontaenous Domain feat in the Complete Champion. It specifies that the feat only applies to the Domain Spell slot.
I’ve never owned the books, so I don’t know if this is an update to the feat specified or the same idea for a feat in two different books.
By: Lookoo on August 19, 2009
at 11:10 pm
I hear you about more options. I respectfully disagree. Being an uber-healer doesn’t give a person more options. It makes them a better healer. If you wanted to have more options, you’d multi-class, play a gestalt character, allow monsters as player characters.
By: Lookoo on August 19, 2009
at 11:24 pm